Episode 197: Lord of the Rings panel discussion

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[Spoiler alert for The Lord of the Rings]

Today, on the Fable and the Verbivore podcast we invited fellow authors Kieran (Kate) Lamoureux and Stephanie Ascough to help us dig into the characters in The Lord of the Rings series.

Stephanie is an author of fantastical and thoughtful stories and poems. Her independently published fantasy debut YA novel A Land of Light and Shadow was released in May ‘20 and a collection of fairytale retelling short stories were published under the title Flower and Cloak in January ‘22. Stephanie also published a collection of fairytale inspired poems on February 1, 2023 under the title The Wistful Wild: Fairy Tale Poems of Longing and Ferocity which also features poems from authors - Stephanie Escobar, Caitlin Gemmell, Cortney Joseph, Jess Lynn, and our own Fable - Beth Stedman.

Kate is an author of dark fantasy romance and contemporary fantasy stories. Her short story ‘Daughter of Darkness & Son of the Sun’ was published last year in the Worldsmyth’s Darkness & Moonlight anthology and her short story Deconstructed won first place in Tribus Polaris’s 2020 flash fiction contest. She’s also a micro editing professional who provides line editing, copy editing, proofreading, and pitches, blurbs, and synopses services. Kate published her Greedy: A Lust & Lore Novella on April 14th, 2023 and is currently working on her debut novel The Guardian (Book 1 of The Terramica War planned trilogy). More information on her work and services can be found on her website at kieranlamoureux.com.

In this episode, we talk a lot about Tolkien’s scope of character knowledge and development. He’s often praised for his language and world-building, but even the smallest of side characters seem to have a well understood and developed history, personality, and motivation. We note how ripe for fan fiction this story is, because these characters draw you and you want to know more.

We also cover a lot of different aspects of the characters in The Lord of the Rings series. Things like:

  • Great male friendships that develop over time

  • The contrasts and similarities between the different characters that are thrown together on the journey

  • Character strengths and flaws - and how Tolkien allows his characters (like Eowyn) to have soft and hard edges

  • The humanity and empathy that Tolkien gives to his characters, so he can write them authentically

We touch on many characters in this conversation - Sam, Frodo, Aragorn, Gandalf, Saruman, Merry, PIppin, Gollum/Smeagol, Gimli, Legolas. Boromir, Faramir, Denethor, Wormtongue, Arwen, Galadriel, and, of course, we spend a significant time towards the end talking about our girl Eowyn.

We wrap this conversation talking about how Tolkien makes sure that we at least understand the psychology behind (and maybe even pity) the lesser villains/antagonists like Gollum and Wormtongue. He doesn’t demonize these characters, and we even get to see on both the page and the screen the two sides of Gollum/Smeagol that are warring within him. And as Frodo begins to understand Gollum and the ring takes on greater weight, our pity for Gollum’s character grows.

Next week, we’ll be continuing our summer of Tolkien by talking about the origin of some of the ideas in The Lord of the Rings and the high fantasy genre in general.

We hope you enjoy this episode, it was such a delight just to get to be a part of it! And keep reading, writing, and putting your voice out there!

Into the woods,

Fable & The Verbivore

Notes:

Stephanie is an author of fantastical and thoughtful stories and poems. Her independently published fantasy debut YA novel A Land of Light and Shadow was released in May ‘20 and a collection of fairytale retelling short stories were published under the title Flower and Cloak in January ‘22. Stephanie also published a collection of fairytale inspired poems on February 1, 2023 under the title The Wistful Wild: Fairy Tale Poems of Longing and Ferocity which also features poems from authors - Stephanie Escobar, Caitlin Gemmell, Cortney Joseph, Jess Lynn, and our own Fable - Beth Stedman.

Stephanie has an author newsletter where she talks about her life and what she’s currently working on (available here) and you can connect with her on Instagram at @author.stephanieascough and on her website at StephanieAscough.wordpress.com. We highly recommend checking out her honest, thought-provoking, and whimsy-filled Instagram posts, which is how we first connected with her.

Stephanie has been a guest twice on the Fable and the Verbivore podcast for an author interview and in an episode ealier this year talking about The Wistful Wild poem collection. Here are those episodes:

Kate is an author of dark fantasy romance and contemporary fantasy stories. Her short story ‘Daughter of Darkness & Son of the Sun’ was published last year in the Worldsmyth’s Darkness & Moonlight anthology and her short story Deconstructed won first place in Tribus Polaris’s 2020 flash fiction contest. Kate published her Greedy: A Lust & Lore Novella on April 14th, 2023 and is currently working on her debut novel The Guardian (Book 1 of The Terramica War planned trilogy).

Kate’s website is KieranLamoureux.com and her Instagram account is @kjlamoureux.writes. We’d highly recommend checking out her bibliophile posts, atmospheric pictures, teasers of her current work, and the flash fiction pieces located in her Instagram stories. We also love her open and candid posts about her personal life and creating as a neurodiverse writer. Her website also lists the micro editing with heart services that she provides - line editing, copy editing, proofreading, and pitches, blurbs, and synopses – as well as her current rates.

Kate has been a guest twice on the Fable and the Verbivore podcast as part of panel episodes earlier this year - with one episode talking about writing sex scenes and another on neurodiversity and creativity. Here are those episodes:

Towards the beginning of this episode, Fable mentions a post that Kate had on Instagram about the male friendships in this series. That post can be found here.

In this conversation, we reference several different quotes from the LOTR books. They are:

  • Sam: “His thought turned to the Ring, but there was no comfort there, only dread and danger. No sooner had he come in sight of Mount Doom, burning far away, than he was aware of a change in his burden. As it drew near the great furnaces where, in the deeps of time, it had been shaped and forged, the Ring's power grew, and it became more fell, untameable except by some mighty will. As Sam stood there, even though the Ring was not on him but hanging by its chain about his neck, he felt himself enlarged, as if he were robed in a huge distorted shadow of himself, a vast and ominous threat halted upon the walls of Mordor. He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dur. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be. In that hour of trial it was his love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command. 'And anyway all these notions are only a trick, he said to himself.”

    ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King

  • Frodo: 'It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.'

    Gandalf: 'Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.'

    Frodo: 'I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.'

    Gandalf: 'So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.”

    ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

  • “A time may come soon," said he, "when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised."

    She answered: "All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death."

    "What do you fear, lady?" he asked.

    "A cage," she said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”

    ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King

We also referenced several movie clips from the films in this conversation. They are:

Towards the end of this episode, the Verbivore references a funny conversation between the actors who played Merry (Dominic and Pippin (Billy Boyd) on their podcast where they talk about lines where they’d put a cuss word into the LOTR films - including the “Fool of a Took” scene in Moria. Here is that video clip:

Books and Movies Mentioned:

Music from: https://filmmusic.io
‘Friendly day’ by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com)
Licence: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)

panel discussionBethany Stedman